Secularism v. Hinduism – I

Posted on March 7, 2008

0


This was supposed to be my rant blog where I would have ranted about everything that is wrong with us human. But I never ranted much. I had so many things to rant about in my personal life that never bothered much to rant about society. But here’s some of the long ranting comments I made on Mutiny.In in one of my post and another post by a certain Mahesh.

I just wanted to keep a copy of these rants in my personal space besides Mutiny.

The original context of the following can be found at the Mutiny Archives for February 2008, “We shall live till the end of times for we have done no wrong”

Sanjukta’s comment number 10
26 Feb 08, 4:27 am

I won’t start this comment by a rhetoric ‘Dear’ because the right winged people piss me off.. I find it difficult to even make friends with them… but why such strong reaction against them…

Because this whole agenda of trying to fix problem of the mankind with ‘my religion’ and ‘your religion’ is ridiculous to me…

There was this line in Rang De Basanti, and since it wasn’t censored by CBFC, am hoping it’s ok to quote that here, “ek pair kal pe te dooja pair aane waale kal pe tabhi to hum aaj pe mut rahe hai” (we have one feet on yesterday, one on tomorrow and that’s how we pee on today) befitting for people who live in history’s lost glory.

True there was a time when there was no Greece or Rome but India was standing, but then there was also a time when there was no Greece, Roam or India there were dinosaurs and dragons.. so? Big deal… can we stop living in the past and move on…your peaceful history doesn’t justify your violent present, today you talk about Hindutva, tomorrow you’ll kill people in the name of Maharashtratva, then Delhitva…you already are actually…

God / Religion is the sole cause of so much blood shed in the whole world, most religious extremists have been guilty and now the Hindus must join the band wagon too… thus Hindus too must take up the weapon and turn violent. And why? To save Hinduism of course, to save our lost glory, our great culture…well, save ‘lives’ first will you…

There are things that endangers the mankind, poverty, health, environment, ignorance, corruption, how would religion, be it any religion, address these ground level issues?? Will Hindutva feed the hungry?

“United we stand divided we fall” For ages we stood united, yes, time when there was no Greece and Rome we were united, its only recently when the right winged parties (getting political here, coz you so proudly declared your political allegiance) unleashed their pure nation theory on the country, when they started contesting elections on the basis of a manifesto which promised to build a certain temple on a certain piece of land of all the things… that we stood divided.

It is only when a fear of losing my religion is being unnecessarily forced upon me that I start hating other religions. Unnecessary because (a) I don’t lose or gain my religion with the movement of a foreign hand waving a magic wand at me, it is something I believe in and practice and I DON’T need no body telling me which religion is mine, what is good and what i must follow. Let me decide that. (b) Even if I do, big deal.

We don’t need no RSS to “organize” (read mislead, divert) the country men for an irrelevant issue, we need scientific / social / economic development, we need to bridge the gap between rich and poor, between upper and lower caste, between genders.

“The organization of Hindus being done…We need conviction and need to stay united against the evil forces”

Against who? What evil forces? Who is planting the seed of divide here? And who are your Hindus btw? Enlighten me, do you consider the people from Manipur, Mizoram Arunachal Pradesh as Hindus or are only the Ram and Hanuman Bhakts known as Hindu?

As rightly pointed out by Venkatesh (in the link he left above), Hinduism is a way of life more than being a religion. With all the Gods that are found in various shapes, sizes, colors, purposes its more of an industry to be honest.

RSS has neither the right nor the capacity to decide what is being Hindu, invent a fanciful Hindutva and then thrust it upon the rest of the country.

So, need of the hour Mr. Mahesh, as 2s already pointed out, is to separate the state from the religion. Let me go ahead and make an extreme statement, India is a secular state, well I think India should be an atheist state. Don’t talk about Gods when you are building a nation, talk about humans.

Comment number 12
26 Feb 08, 6:23 am

@Smart Opinion.

You called 2s a pseudo quite a few times, I was wondering, and I always do, why do all the right winged people leave comment under a PSEUDO name…smart opinion, Modern Mullah et all. Nevermind.

You talked about UCC, for those who are not aware, it’s the Uniform Civil Code which means all people in India to have a single law for personal affairs of civil nature like marriage divorce, inheritance etc.

Tell me, did you ever try to draft UCC in your mind? How does it look to you? Does it look like Hindu Family Law being forced upon people of any and every religion living in India? Or is it going to be a balance between the various personal laws, sort of get the best of all world? Because trust me there are indeed good things under all personal laws.

A Hindu marriage is a sacrament, a union for 7 birth, that is why a Hindu widow has no right to remarry, in fact she should be burnt alive along with their Husband (call that Sati). A Muslim marriage on the other hand is a social contract. The groom have to pay a price in consideration of which the bride agrees to marry him.

That reminds me, you mentioned “Hinduism is evolving.” You are right, it indeed is. So it was only when thousands and thousands of Widows were killed, that we evolved and abolished Sati daha pratha. Islam, on the other hand always thought marriage is merely a social contract so a widow can always remarry so they never killed a Muslim widow.

The Hindu marriage is still not compulsorily registrable, while Muslim marriage was always done in writing. A nikahnama (pre nuptial agreement) is an integral part of a Muslim marriage.

Under the UCC, are we going to get rid of that Sacrament bit from Hindu marriages and accept what it truly is, a social contract? Are all Hindus ready to get rid of the most important ritual required to solemnize a marriage, that of Saptapadi (7 rounds / steps) and are all Muslim ready to get rid of the “Kabool hai” bit and are we as a nation, Hindu Muslim etc. alike ready to replace all our religion based rituals and ceremonies with just “4 signatures and a stamp paper?”

Let me know how many right winged Hindus have discarded the Hindu ceremony and went for a SMA instead. Dig my post, “Atheism Law and Marriage” from the Mutiny archives to know what SMA is.

Bigamy is prohibited amongst Hindus but allowed in Islam. That’s your worry. Go look up the data on how many Hindus actually practice bigamy and even better, go figure how many Hindu wives have happily accepted bigamy. (I’ll put some links later on mutiny may be). So, how about we have a balance here and say we allow 2 wives and 2 Husbands to all.

Muslim be not governed by Sharia and Hindus be not governed by Manusmriti. Sounds good?

UCC is an impossibility by all means. If the right wing must insist they must be insisting on making all personal laws similar to Hindu Law.

You sum up the RSS / Hindutva intentions well when you said this “Pseudos like you living in UTOPIA destroyed this country and are still doing that.. Since Kangis cornered Hindus for the sake of Muslim votes now this history has to be reversed..”

Tell you what, united we shall stand, no matter how much you try to fill our hearts with hatred for each other, how much you try to divide Indians on the basis of religion, because at the end of the day law and order would prevail, not all Modis would go scot free. I shall still value my muh bola Muslim brother’s opinion more than I value my real first cousin, and he shall still be excited to visit me on Raksha Bandhan because we have great faith in the country’s Constitution and love for each other.

Comment Number 80
28 Feb 08, 3:56 am

Modern Mullah..UCC does not even need to touch Hindu or Muslim family laws. We can come up with something entirely secular, the only problem I see is Muslims not accepting it.

Like what? Gimme an example here…don’t talk about theory….

Exactly how would a marriage under the UCC be solemnized…just gimme an example of some thing absolutely secular which also doesn’t messes with the existing matrimonial laws under Hindu and Muslim personal laws.

Why are you bringing Manusmriti here. Have you ever seen that book in your life? Sharia on the other hand is widely practiced in the Islamic world.

I have, but assuming I have not. So? So what if Manu’s code is not as strictly followed as it used to be till about 2004 (that’s when we passed the amendment to Hindu Succession Act (HSA) and declared Mr. Manu was wrong in denying women the right to equal inheritance). So what if Sharia is used every day at every step amongst Muslim. When UCC will come both personal laws based on religion would have to go in its entirety…no? Or are you suggesting the Sharia must go because there is too much of it every where while the Manu can stay coz it’s hardly visible?

You keep saying how Islam treats women badly, Hinduism treats women equally bad and so does Christianity. At least that’s one area where all religions are united. The fact is gender justice can be achieved even within the personal laws. Like we now have the amended HSA (although the Hindu women had to wait this long to be treated at par with men, while all these years you guys were happily guarding the unjust HINDU laws made by Mr. Manu)

So you see you don’t have to attack the entire Sharia law to save your Muslim sisters, if that’s your intention, just ammend the bit which are unjust.

Hindu law on the record is one of the most gender biased law so don’t you pretend to be this messiah of Hindu women. Don’t no religious extremist, for that matter, claim to be unbiased to women. That’s the fate of women irrespective of religion.

-> If in Islam they have bride price, in Hindu we have the concept of Kanyaa daan, which means the daughter is a piece of property which keeps passing through various stages of ownership through her life. From father to husband to son.

-> The father of a child is legally considered to be its NATURAL guardian.. of all the stupid things. I mean when you can’t even tell if the child is really yours w/o a DNA test, how on earth is it NATURALLY yours?? It should naturally belong to the mother coz that’s where it came out from naturally.

-> Only a son can perform last rites and if you don’t have a son your soul is screwed forever..thou shall never rest in peace unless thou has given birth to a SON.

And so we kept procreating till we gave birth to son and made this country the second largest in population.

And you say only Islam is unjust.

Even Hinduism doesn’t allow marriage outside religion why do you keep cribbing about Islam.

Lastly, you need not worry about what my Muslim friends are doing. You please feel free to spread as much hatred as you can against them, and 100s of me will fight you wherever you’d go. Like 1conoclast said “your Hindutva has awakened us”. Thanks.

Comment number 90
29 Feb 08, 2:20 pm

@Smart OpinionI thought I’d not respond to your baseless arguments anymore but then i can’t resist.

Inspiration from Manusmirit and quoting Hindu text is different like sky and earth.

Huh!! Come again. I didn’t get you. Hindu text is what? What is Hindu text? And what is Manusmriti? How are they different. What are you trying to say please explain.

And show me which section of Hindu Population is insisting on Hindu laws over anybody else.. Years and years Hindus suggested to get rid of all CIVIL laws but the PSEUDO Kangis were played like a football by the MINORITY MUSLISMS..

Huh again!! First up, I assume you talking about Hindu PERSONAL laws when you say CIVIL laws. Ok here’s the deal, show me one, just one example of a guy or a gal from the RSS brigade who discarded hindu personal laws related to his marriage and all laws related to the HUF that he belongs to.

With the Hindu being so hung up on their “culture” they would never give up any of their personal laws. By introducing UCC all you are trying to do is make muslims follow Hindu personal laws. That’s what you want and that’s why it is not opposed by Hindus. BTW it is opposed by feminist organisations if that means anything to you and for your information a feminist mostly don’t have a religion.

This whole argument is so baseless. It is proven worldwide that the same holy book of Islam is being interpreted differently. Taliban was also following Islam and Pakistan also follows Islam but not everything is same in these 2 places. Sania Mirza and Diya mirza are also muslim woman and so are the women next door covered top to bottom in burkha but they interpreted their codes of conduct differently and ended up followoing Islam diffenretly.

So it is obvious that you don’t have to bad mouth the entire religion and all their religion based laws. It’s not like every muslim in the world is uncivilized.

Yes, at times we find some Islamic laws going against 21st century Human Rights but then so are some of the incidents done by the RSS brigade which does not even have religious basis,

-> HARASSING COUPLES ON VALENTINES DAY is one of them.

-> HONOR KILLING done by Rajputs for the mere reason that their sons and daughters fell in love with some outside the caste even though that person was HINDU.

-> Killing / abetting Rizwanur’s death is another.

So don’t you Hindu champions taint an entire section of people as uncivilized and barbaric just because they belong to a certain religion. Civilization is in the minds, not so much in the religion.

Advertisements